18 Responses to “HU Podcast #22: Jimmy Kimmel, Chicago Songs, and the 20th Anniversary Tour”

1. Jeff From Above Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 5:47 am

   good show.

2. lala Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 6:20 am

   great show …
   couple of “news” for the next one …
   - in the new prison break episode alexander mahone gets
   an alias and that alias is frank ZWAN
   will billy sue?
   - erik per sullivan (better known as dewey from malcolm in the middle)
   said in a chat room that he is a fan of 90s rock
   among his fav bands are total chaos, morphine, smashing pumpkins and
   red red meat
   - last but not least … dallas mavericks josh howard dissed the pumpkins
   united states snippet called star s. banner in a video posted on ESPN.com

3. awindow Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 10:15 am

   Totally agree with Chris. Charging this kind of money for bootlegs is way high. Not that they should be free, but way way cheaper. If you bought tickets to the show, you should get the boot download for free, and pay for the CD. I think the observation that once you’ve spent 50 bucks (sometimes more) on a concert, whats another ten, is really kind of inaccurate. If you shell out seventy dollars for a gig, paying another ten or twenty could well feel like you’re being fleeced, especially when bootlegs have typically been free.

   I do okay financially, but as much as I’d like to hear a soundboard recorded boot, I don’t know that it worth (or that I would pay) twenty dollars for it.

   Having said that, I don’t think it’s about the money. Although Pearl Jam did make a lot of theirs available for free. I think ad revenue could probably pay for the cost on livedownloads could cover much of their costs though.

   Bang on about this not being for mainstream fans. Even casual fans that go to concerts aren’t necessary going to care to hear bootlegs, even if they are free.

4. lala Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 12:21 pm

   well i would pay 15 dollars for a REALY GREAT live show sound quality
   remember 15 dollars isnt much these days as the dollar is sinking down
   despite the efforts from john mccain to save the US economy with his strong
   macho hands

5. lala Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 12:24 pm

   and remember you get 2,5 hours of music or around 30 songs
   50 cents for a song? that is a good deal

6. pins Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 2:32 pm

   I think the pricing for mp3s and flacs area a little high, possibly to the detriment of sales. For reference, the two closest contemporaries to the Pumpkins on that list are the Black Crowes and Counting Crows. The mp3s for both bands sell for $9.95, with the FLACS at $12.95 for Counting Crows and $14.95 for the Black Crowes. CDs ran $21 for CC and $23 for the Black Crowes, which overall is too high for the physical product that isn’t going to retail.

   With regard to awindow’s suggestion of it being free with ticket purchase, I just don’t think that’s reasonable really. I mean, it’s a product and a revenue stream, in the same way that t-shirts and posters are. Money may not be the main factor, but it’s certainly a benefit for the band while giving the fans something they may desire.
   If it doesn’t affect the taping policy, then it’s even giving them a choice. Pay for soundboard quality or download audience recordings…there’s incentive to choose based on what you prefer.

   The move is definitely for the hardcore fan, though maybe not the tech-savvy hardcore fan. But either way, good for them. If it leads to archive shows being offered, even better, though I think they’d benefit to readjust the pricing. Of course, a lot of that may depend on the agreement with Livedownloads as well.

7. awindow Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 2:53 pm

   For sure, I really hope the taping policy isn’t affected by this. That would be really terrible, especially since this has been one of pumpkins more progressive stances lately.

   I think if they are going to charge for a download 5$ is reasonable. It’s not too much and you can charge more for a physical product. It has to be kept in mind though, that these are bootlegs and not ‘albums’ as such. Some of the paradigm breaking album downloads have gone for 5$ and if you want the CD, that’s a little bit more. Once you get into the ten dollar plus range for a bootleg download, I think it’s a little bit much.

   You have a situation too, where ‘hard cores’ will pay anything, so you can sort of get away with it. But if this is going to extend to someone who just went to the show, enjoyed it, and wants something to share or listen too, and they are more casual, they will be put off by the price.

   I’m more on the hard core side myself and I can’t justify paying that much for a download, even though I’d love to hear some of them, so what does that mean?

   The Black Crows have always been a little whorish.

   tramp aamaritanism.

8. lala Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 2:56 pm

   the black crowes dont know that they are not relevant any more :D

9. awindow Says:
   October 1st, 2008 at 2:56 pm

   tramp samaritanism.

   whoops. after the whore comment, it seemed pretty apporpriate.

10. pins Says:
    October 1st, 2008 at 3:37 pm

    I swear recaptcha reads responses. That’s a great one though.

    $5 might be too reasonable…especially without knowing how much of a cut livedownload gets, etc., it could end up being a losing proposition for the ban. Plus, if you factor in the $.99 per song pricing standard from Itunes, I don’t think $9.95 for a 20+ song set is an entirely unreasonable amount to ask. $14.95 for mp3s is high though.

    It all depends on perspective in terms of “bootleg” though. People claiming $15 is too much for a soundboard show directly from the band probably had no problem coughing up $30 for KTS boots in the mid-90s. It’s just the Internet and “free” download culture that’s changed.

    If they want to truly draw in some of the less-hardcore who attend the show, offering a discount code at the venue may entice. I saw the Swell Season this summer and was given a card on the way out that gave me $4 off the show recording from their website, and it definitely enticed me to buy. Note, the mp3s were $9.95 and FLACS $12.95.

    Let’s be honest though. Anyone who balks at the price is still going to find a way to get these if they want. I’d rather pay a higher price (within reason) to support a band I like knowing I’m getting a quality product in return.

11. awindow Says:
    October 1st, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    I would too in most cases, but bootlegs are kind of a different story. I would shell out for a ‘live album’ for sure, complete with artwork and the like, and i guess in some ways (i.e. quality) these are going to be a bunch of live albums. However they still are only downloads, not not complete records as such.

    Shelling out that kind of money in the mid nineties was a situation where you aren’t paying the band…which I guess means that this more direct way is better for fans and the group as well. Still though, burining cd’s of these bootlegs and making artwork and mailing stuff was a much more costly proposition in those days. Making FLACS and MP3’s can cost nothing. Which is why it’s very odd as well that FLACS are more expensive.

    I’m not pro-download, I buy a lot of stuff, and i work in music publishing/copyright. I can tell you that the price itunes charges for songs - and what groups see of that - is not all that reasonable. Not everything has to be a commodity, it’s possible to charge money for stuff (i.e. shows, albums proper, shirts), but it is also possible to cut some deals with people that have supported you for years, and not have it put you in the negative financially.

    Without a label now, the band could set up a situation whereby they offer these on their website (like pearl jam, NIN and others) and while bandwith costs, cutting out the middle person might make it better for the fans and the band.

12. awindow Says:
    October 1st, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    snowball hungry

13. Chris Says:
    October 1st, 2008 at 6:39 pm

    I guess that charging extra for FLACs is purely because they can. The type of person who is looking for pristine audio quality is also most likely a more hardcore fan who would be willing to pay more. I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with this if the prices were lower across the board.

    I think that $9.95 and $11.95 are reasonable for MP3s and FLACs respectively, and I think that giving out a token discount to those who attend the show makes both financial and promotional sense. Psychologically I would probably buy twice as many shows at this price point than at $14.95/$17.95. $12 seems comparable to what I would pay for a CD at Best Buy, $18 is comparable to what I wouldn’t pay seeing a CD cost this much at Borders, although as I said in the podcast what I think I would pay is probably much different from what I would actually pay.

    I’m not sure how much of the pricing the band has control over, but as pins pointed out all of the bands have their prices set differently, which implies that unlike with iTunes the band does have some sort of say in setting a price point. LiveDownloads.com may set the surcharges for FLAC and CD, though.

    All quibbling aside, I’m ecstatic that the band is doing this and even more ecstatic that there is no DRM involved. I’ll definitely be supporting them and buying a couple of shows.

14. fogelsong Says:
    October 2nd, 2008 at 8:48 am

    Imagine my surprise this morning, finishing up the podcast on the way to work this morning, when Jill and Jason call out my name…

15. pins Says:
    October 2nd, 2008 at 8:58 am

    Charging more for FLACs seems to be a common practice across the board. I suppose in theory it could be because the larger file size increases bandwith costs long-term, but it’s probably as Chris says, because they can…makes sense, pay more for better quality. I’d imagine there’s a base price livedownloads allows though, since most prices are similar.

    Awindow, yeah, I know musicians don’t see much from itunes sales, but at least I know those few pennies are going toward them, same here. And I’m very pro-physical product, though I will download legally from time to time. I guess given there’s a bit of legitimacy makes me less hesitant regarding labeling them as “bootlegs” but I do wonder what kind of mastering will be done with the recordings.

    I’m also curious to know what the physical CDs look like. I’d assume bare-bones in terms of artwork, but digipak, jewelcase, etc.?

16. awindow Says:
    October 2nd, 2008 at 9:20 am

    That’s a good question. And it’s true that in buying label made CD’s artists see next to nothing of that if they are on majors as well. So buying a CD direct in this fashion is also a positive for the band.

    I think I maybe managed to convince myself.

17. 34 Says:
    October 2nd, 2008 at 6:58 pm

    1) Since I listened to the last 2 podcasts back to back, I can confirm that Chris was right- you DID talk about the 2-show sets in the last one, but only in terms of like, “if the band can sell out 2 shows of 6,000 people, it doesn’t necessarily mean they could sell out 1 show of 12,000- maybe more like 9,000.” I don’t remember any mention of potential setlists, since that info hadn’t come out yet.

    2) The Pisces Iscariot cassette cover is a Roll-O-Plane, aka “Salt & Pepper Shakers”, aka “Bullet” (hmm… foreshadowing? ^^;) - pix.

    3) Jill- a what? A Chef’s ring? Me no get.

    4) The livedownload pricing- I agree that $15 seems high for a digital download. Yeah, you can say we all bought $30 KTS boots 10 years ago, but 10 years ago there was no such thing as mp3s, or even affordable CDRs- it took weeks to trade cassettes. Now you can log in & download an entire show in FLAC in a few minutes (provided you’ve got decent bandwidth), for free. Yeah, it’s not soundboard, but some of the higher-quality gear used makes for some damn good sounding recordings. While a single show at $15 might not sound unreasonable to some, what about the ULTRA-hardcore fan who wants the whole tour? At over 20 shows (not sure if they’ll be including the bridge school show, since that might have its own rules), that’s $300 (unless they have a special “entire tour” package deal/discount- anyone know?). If you’re also going to a couple shows at $50 each, & buying a t-shirt (another $30-40), that’s gonna add up pretty damn quick. Yeah, we can always just download them from LMA, but that comes with its own problems- namely whether a show is even taped or not, how long it takes the taper to edit & upload, and what the quality is like.

    OTOH, livedownloads not only has to cover the (obviously cheap) cost of bandwidth & billing overhead, but also the cost of actually sending someone to the shows to make the recording, and then editing it down to a downloadable format. I’m guessing this means at LEAST track separation & a fade in/out at the beginning/end & around the encore breaks. That stuff takes time, albeit nowhere close to as much as mastering a “real” album. At the same time, depending on how much other editing they do (are they leaving it mostly as-is? adding normalization? dynamic compression?) it may not be what the FLAC-target-audience audiophiles are going to want. What kind of stuff WILL they be doing?

    Also, having a discount for ticket-holders sounds like a good idea, too, but it’s really not technically feasible, unless there was a deal w/ the ticket providers to provide some kind of single-use code to enable the discount.

    rC: Rock URING. huh?

18. jillysp Says:
    October 3rd, 2008 at 11:12 am

    34 — not a “Chef’s ring,” a SCHOEPS RIG. As in, microphones. :)

    reC: and childhood

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